Recording and presentations: Bringing Industrial Solar Heat to Market
30 October 2019
Automated transcription (it may contain errors)
Hello, everyone, welcome to watch the webinar bringing you only the right place. So bear with us. We’ll be waiting for a couple of minutes and then we will start. As you might know, this webinar is brought to do my A World Bank program called the main a concentrated sort of our knowledge and innovation program and we have been working Working with the World Bank to increase awareness and bring
bring technical and
financial assistance a required to places where the concentrated solar heat technology and option could be applied. So that’s, you know, throughout the Maghreb region most place suitable so well in this webinar will have four, three experts who will tell you all about, you know, these technology and from their experiences and how different business models could be applied to make these, these technology a reality. So, well, we haven’t will start shortly but before we start, we have a tradition here at our webinars we mentioned through the chat box where we’re joining from So I’m here from Madrid, Spain, with my colleague sad. And so yeah, please, you know, go to the chat box and my Doc, where you’re joining us from. And also well, as a reminder, we will be sending you the recording of the webinar and the presentations. But stay with us, because today is your chance to ask questions to the audience. So do the be experts mean? So don’t miss. Don’t miss out on that chance. You can ask questions through the q amp a box, which is in the toolbar. And right so let’s wait for a few more seconds and then we’ll start UC, welcome Enrique from Brazil, you get a shout out because you’re the first one to say Where you’re joining from now all of you will get that privilege. I encourage you to mention where you’re joining from. So right to start with I’ll get each of the panelists to introduce themselves so remain Could you briefly introduce yourself in a couple of sentences?
So honey credit, I’m a interest working for K firm, which is a third party investor in renewable heat projects. And today with a strong focus on solar thermal, we’ve been financing and currently building 14,000 square meter flooded collector planting in France. Looking forward to finance more sort of more projects.
Thank you for me. Miguel, Could you briefly introduce yourself?
Yes, of course. Good afternoon. My name is Monica said. I’m from from solid, solid, solid Thomas’s Spanish. Company solar provider of linear from now solar collectors. And we are live currently deploying our systems mostly in in Spain.
Thank you, Miguel. And last, but definitely not least, and actually the first one to present is valuable. So Bob will please introduce yourself, and then get ready to start the presentation.
Well, certainly, thanks for the nice introduction. My name is Babel. I’m based in the north of Germany be the Fed. I’m the director of a German agency, which is called the recall. And we are focusing on solar heating and cooling news and technology trends all around the world.
So I’m supposed to start Is it correct?
That’s right, thank you marble. So, you know, take take your time, share your presentation and bang start and you know, in the main time I’ll remind those of you who joined after I made the announcement that we will definitely send you the recording, the video recording and the presentations. Stay with us because this is your chance to ask questions to the three experts are here with us today. So without further ado, please, barbel.
Yeah, thank you. So, I have the chance to give you a brief introduction into what’s happening on the solar process heat world markets. We have a dynamic positive development recently, we have started with our statistics 2012 with 125 ship systems and they have grown to more than 700 ship is actually shortcut which you will hear probably a lot in this presentation. It stands for solar heat for industrial processes, and it’s used in general for systems that deliver heat to manufacturing businesses. The statistics I’m presenting in this presentation they are mainly covered from solar payback, which is a project and international project supporting ship market in outside Europe, India, Mexico, South Africa and Brazil. We have questioned the industry to give us their numbers of newly and starship systems and we have identified 104 new ship systems in 2018. The key countries last year were Mexico with 51 systems, so half of the world market so to say, China and India we have good news actually, that well known brands have you have decided to use solar heat. So we have seen installations with IKEA in Singapore, Nestle, Mexico, Philippines and Brazil Hudson our products in India which is the biggest dairy in India only lever India near may thinking about More systems to come Pepsi and USA and so on. You can find a lot of photos of these nice installations on a solar payback gallery, which is online and you can use these photos if you mentioned the copyright owner, so feel free to download photos and if you have presentations to your clients or whatever activities you are running on ship, these are all ship projects and they are all well defined. So you will find the site the year of installation, the collector type and a lot of more information. It’s available in English, Spanish and Portuguese. We have always so set up and this is the base of all our survey Technology Roadmap. And on this world map we have more than 80 turnkey solar process heat suppliers listed. So you see that we have a growing and committed supply chain that offer these solutions worldwide. We have system suppliers which are Ready to offer this is the yellow and the orange part. They have not yet references and ship but they might be active in hospitals and other large installations and solar heat. And we have flyers we have references to show so if you open one of these markers you will find a detailed description of the company with a number of references also linked to references, their produce collector type and more information also available in English, Spanish and Portuguese. Another good news that we have and actually entered the gigawatt size of installations. This is thanks to a US based company which is called glass point. They have in the meantime more than 500 employees and started several years ago to concentrate on enhanced or recovery. That means producing solar steam to pump it down into the air make oil more liquid and bring it back to the surface. We have a one gigawatt installation under construction man, this is The one on the photo with around 200 megawatts already installed. I 250 megawatt are under planning in California and one two gigawatt are in Oman. So this brings us and on the international agenda on big conferences, because this is really big investing. So one gigawatt you once completed maybe in two years would be even bigger than the SP plans.
Well, but I don’t want to hide from you as well that ship is really tough business. If you answer if you question these technology suppliers we have listed on the roadmap 93 of them told us that they are not satisfied with our sales in 2018. Because only 32 ship suppliers installed one system or more last year, so 70% of them were not able to realize a single ship system during the year. This is due to the really tough negotiations that many industry companies asked for short payback periods and often a lack of financing and low energy prices. We have asked them this is you know, these bars they are based on 60 answers from these technology suppliers, we have asked them and they all agree that obtaining financing is one of the retarding factors. But we have also asked them whether energy heat delivery contracts are an important model to increase ship deployment and they to a high extent agree to that. So, you see over 80% strongly and strongly agree or agree to this statement. And this is actually a positive trend because it will bring us out of these you know, credit issues with a short term, the short payback periods that industry asked and that ship cannot fulfill because the investment is always high and this technology only pays back over the period of low maintenance. So, what we have seen this is encouraging that escrow models are actually increasing impractical and not only if you ask, you know, not only in surveys they are supported. We have a number of technology suppliers, well known ones that have added heat supply contracts to their portfolio, which is what all those are lights the market leader, one of the market leaders in Mexico, the new para DeepMind, one of the biggest solar brands in China, and Millennium energy industries, and Jordan is a big system developer. We have also a number of startup companies that focus only on Eskimos so their business model is said we will not sell hardware to customers but only heat supply contracts. And this is to mention new heat and France and SAWA in Austria. And last but not least, we have renewable financing facilitators that have broadened their strategy or their portfolio to include solar heat, whereas beforehand they were only active in renewable electricity projects like mint and PV one is to mention CubeSat I will be a presenter later on. And one is to mention equal legal investment which is a crowdfunding platform newly founded a German based one with with international outreach, and they finance only escrow projects in the range of 100 to 400,000 US dollars.
So, well I wanted to sort of gather you a bit of the drivers and barriers of ship markets. Some of the barriers I have already mentioned, you know, which are generally low fossil fuel prices, the expectation of the industry to short payback periods, which are hard to fulfill the law awareness for ship you know, among Industry and Energy consultants. Difficulties obtaining financing was mentioned. Also the smaller share of energy costs within total costs. So, if your product has only 1% energy costs, it’s not really a need to think about difficult investment into a ship land and time. Planning costs because every project is customer specific. But we have also drivers and this is worth looking at the right hand side as well. We have a number of companies giving direct subsidies and this is for sure a good driver like we will hear later from France, India, Germany, Austria, Netherlands and California to mentioned here, we have regions with economic competitiveness. I hope our Spanish speaker will sort of confirm that later on and Mexico which is for sure, you know, market leader and a pure economic market for ship. We have a large and committed supply chain that I mentioned, we have cleaner air policy in China, which is a big driver because they are really facing out coal boilers rapidly in the north of China at the moment, but unfortunately mostly with heat pumps because they don’t have space in the big cities. But if their space often solar heat is done, well then you have on an individual basis green and sustainable marketing sure solar beer or whatever you sell as marketing that I’ve invested in renewables. And this last part down here, I actually want to stress that because it’s not really a driver yet in the ship business, but I think that there is a big chance. These are the networks, what I call industrial, low carbon networks. You know, these are sort of interest groups where companies and there are really big ones among them have grouped to announce specific targets. So they commit themselves to say, I will do 100% renewable by 2050 or I will do 20% reduction by 2010. So, these these networks, a lot of committed companies will have understood about climate change are linked and are working together and are lobbying together, but only on renewable electricity yet. So, my chance I see here is contacting companies which are already committed, but to explain to them that 80% of their energy demand is here. Heat, and therefore they need to look into renewable technologies as well. So this is my little issue here. The last slide already is a short brief introduction into what we have done for Brazil. It’s just launched this week. So I want you to want to mention it. It’s an industrial solar heat strategy. So whoever is interested in Brazilian market, I recommend this brochure. We have looked into three industries pulp and paper, food and beverage and chemicals. We have calculated business cases, we have identified actions needed to develop these ship potentials. And what I find extremely special about this publication, we sort of made it a small eight pager, very compact, only little text very graphic oriented to make it easy to be understood by, you know, fast readers like politicians. So who is interested into this publication And you can find it for download under this link when later on the presentation is share to everybody. So that’s already from my side, you find the most important links here again, and I’m looking forward to an interesting discussion later on.
Thank you very much model for your presentation. Very interesting. I hope it gives our listeners and our viewers a good treat for thought for questions later on. We have the first question already there in the q amp a box which we will answer after all presentations have been delivered. And next up is Miguel Plaskitt. Again, over to you.
Okay, thank you. Let me share my screen. Okay.
Can you see my presentation?
Okay. Thank you. So So thank you, everyone. Thank you ada Insights for the invitation. But of course, thank you all the audience, that journey for this webinar. Again, my name is may have escaped and this year select them as I said before, so let me say small company based in Spain, and we develop linear funnel content rating collectors for selected applications in industry. So, the goal of my presentation is to show you a How is this panel situation regarding these type of applications and what is solid Tom’s approach to bring this technology to the to the Spanish to the Spanish market. So, before we start, let me introduce you our company very, very briefly, I promise. As I mentioned before we developing a funnel collectors we develop our system back in 2016. Very recently, one year ago, actually, we joint venture with in the tech which is the energy branch of Spanish groups in a trio, a very good group in Spain focus on construction on energy environment among other sectors. So, the result of this joint venture is a company called si si n, which is responsible for the Spanish market. And in only one year it has already five reference in in operation, doing construction and two more in development as you can see in the in the map. So, what makes CSIS different from the solar providers, it is completely focused on SMEs small and medium, medium companies. So for example, in the in the left picture, you have one of our last projects in a small in a small coke factory in Spain. And as you can see select very different from the projects that we all used to see right like for example, in the case that bad show before the one or from glass point, in this case this mining facility in Chile very, very, very known project to. So why the small projects why SMEs So just to give you an example here you have the largest meat processing factory in my hometown in Valencia. But forget about for the moment for me factor you could say IKEA you could say Nestle, like Bob and show before but in this case is a meat factory 27 gigawatt hours of thermal demand with an available surface of 2000 square meters. And in the right side you have the equivalent SME. So is it produces the same MIT but with only one gigabyte our demand and 10 times less less surface available. So which one do you think is better for CSH applications right So, traditionally most of the solar providers always look for the for these kind of big projects like like the one in the in the left side, but when you go into the details, you can see that in the case of SMEs that are not only sometimes more attractive market, but also a bigger one for example, they pay more for the few It is easy to reach the decision maker which is very, very important and the time to get a final decision is also shorter. And of course, you you you could achieve usually higher solar fraction you to the lower energy energy density. So, for example, actually if you check How is the situation of this technology in Spain, nowadays you can see that as more projects are in fact, the, the most common in in in Spain, of course. So, out of the 30 reference that you can see here 130 seen operation, the situation of one of the 30s is unfortunately unknown 20% of dismantle and a couple of them are not in operation or or in construction. So if you don’t take into account the dismantle projects, you can see that the average surface of the projects are very low 200 square meters. But notice if you include the already dismantle projects, they are very surface increases, because during the 80s we have like three big projects now completely dismantle, but the average surface increases but this is still far from the big projects that you can see in killer China.
So you can see the training the Spanish market is clearly showing that is clearly showing the growing influence of a small and medium projects. So however, although SMEs could show some advantages, this market is not as Piece of cake then the market is extremely atomized holiness being we have 3 million companies has spread all over the territory. In most of the cases, they keep, like a very low profile in terms of communication, so it’s very difficult to reach them. And also since the projects are small fixed costs, like engineering, for example becomes significant. So now I want to let me explain you how in silicon we’re tackling these these challenges. And first of all, the most important that the market. So here you can see all the industries from a specific sector in Spain, it’s impossible to reach all of them of course, and even if it possibly would not be advisable since most of the cases that technology could not have an attractive favor action. So what you need is to filter the information like this, and not only solar radiation also price of energy and available software. For example, we sometimes forget. So, what we need to do to reach this, this this filter result is that in solid and we develop an algorithm called power which is transfer probabilistic algorithm for better lead acquisition and these have already been the fastest step identify the areas in which the has you can find the highest probability of having industries with with an attractive payback. So, it does it apply in consecutive filters like solar radiation price of fossil fuels, thermal demand. So, for example, in this in this example for a specific sector in the textile industry in Spain, from the 8000 municipalities that from the Spanish territory, the algorithm just filter only 400 and in the second step what is going to do is that is going to gather information from the companies of this sector in these 400 municipalities, and he’s going to gather information like is available online, usually business information like for example revenues, number of employees type of a product that you’re producing. And what he does is with this available business information, it correlates with with energy information. So for example, a matching business information tells you that the industry produces I don’t know a specific textile with a revenues to 5,000,050 employees for example. So, the algorithm is going to tell you okay has 62% probability that we have a thermal demand in the range of three to 60 kilowatt hours 20% probability of having a family man between six and 10, Giga, etc, and so on. So, once you have this information, you can actually perform a feasibility studies and then you Get the paper the probability of having different rates of paper. So, at the end what is going to the algorithm is locate indices without with a high with a high potential for these kind of us of applications. Now, what you have is a huge amount of small and medium industries with high potential now you have to do all the engineering of of all of them, which is it’s going to take an eternity of course. So, with a traditional approach like big big companies, big projects, you can afford actually expending time and money in using professional self worth a lot of them, but when you go for the for the SME is not possible because you have the volume of projects that you have to assess is, is is bigger. So, for that what we did is we develop an algorithm, sorry a tool called recipe which is a available online. And you can actually simulate, even with your phone, do feasibility studies for this kind of, of applications. So just to describe a little more about recipes is free and open source, you can access online, www recipe that calm the source of the source code is available online. And GitHub is maintained by a community of researchers. And it has like an automatic mode. So you don’t need to be like an energy spread to to actually perform simulation.
Because at the end, you need to perform a digital engineering for every project does, of course, but with these kind of tools, what you can do actually perform quick brief feasibility studies in order to select the most attractive projects. So you don’t waste resources in in studying projects with with low potential Finally, not the To be cost competitive with such a small and medium projects, we need also to change the the technology itself. And because in the process you actually can afford in situ construction, and you can afford building adult integrations for its customer. But when you go to the small and medium projects you cannot. So that’s why we created pre assemble a standard model, like the one that you you can see in the pictures. So our modules are built and calibrated in factory, then you put them in the position and deployed him as barely very easy. So the solar field for example, is like 105 square meters, and it was ready to connect to the voting system in only two days. So it’s completely different approach like from the from the break from the big projects. So he for example, you have another image from another Project This is a slightly bigger 420 square meters, but it is still far from the traditional projects and super far from for example, last point mega projects for enhanced recovery. So, this is my last slide where they want to say here is that with this pre assembled approach, what are we trying to do is that the distillation cost of one of our models which is roughly 10,000 euros per model or less, it has to be the same for it whether you start one or 100 and that’s why we can go with a very cost competitive approach to a small projects where we think and we believe that is the low hanging fruits from from from this market. So to do so what we do so what we do is that our designs self calibrated so you don’t have to calibrate on the field. You can connect all the piping and water in a couple of hours. So that’s the approach that we follow for the for the Salafi and we are also trying to reach and I think this is very important for the, for the, for the technology, standard balance of fun, lots of plant is all the piping pans, he just changes everything. So we need to read and we are trying to reach like a standard a balance of plan that can be used in different integration schemes as many years as possible. And just the final thought of course, this approach has clear disadvantages when when building big plans so that’s why you will never see at the mega but he’d plan from solid on but the good side is that if you can just spend you will see our models in in a lot of industries. So that’s all from my side. I will love to hear questions
after all the presentations. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Miguel, very interesting presentation where you see the questions mounting up, don’t worry, we will answer them after all presentations. Maybe you could stop sharing your best yet. Great. And then Remy is your present?
Yes. Hello, everyone. So thanks to Ata Insights for organizing this webinar and everybody for flattening. I guess you can smell my screen. So I introduced k from is a third party investor in renewable heat and energy efficiency projects. We are focused on renewable eaten not electricity and we are here to finance this project for a very capex intensive and to And we will partner with engineering engineering companies that try to sell these kinds of projects around the world. So Katherine, as I said, it is an investment company so we control it to select own wallets and etc company. We’re not an one company we always team up with companies such as Saturn or others in the markets, not only in solar mode, but also in some government projects by mass distributing projects, waste projects, energy performance contract projects. We are rather looking at projects a little bit bigger than the one that Nico presented. So she’s developed 1 million euros and up to a 15 million euros because if you want to implement a third party financing, you do need to have a project of certain size and I would like to stress fats as Today we’ve mainly done projects in Europe. But our geographical scope is worldwide. We know that certain conditions are notably met in a lot of regions in South America and North Africa, the Middle East, Asia and so on. And so we are currently looking at projects on a worldwide basis. So if you look at this project, and notably solar thermal, what everybody observes is that industrial sites often have an issue with payback period. And often projects are very interesting from an environmental point of view from an economical point of view. But most of the time, these projects are not implemented. And that’s because the industrial side industrial company won’t agree to making the investments in the project. So that’s where we teamed up with engineering companies. HPC contractors ONM contractors in order to have a bundled offer, were which is an escort offer where we sell the heat to the clients based on the heat contract that will be with a duration from 10 to 15 to 20 years, where we agree on the heat price in euro US dollars, and so on per megawatt hour. And wherever client doesn’t have to invest in stuff in the in the assets in the solar thermal plants. That’s what we do. We take care of the PC view and if any, any strategy authorizations and so on. And we try to have a simple solution that can be implemented with the industrial company so that they don’t have to finance it so that they can share or even de risk the project from a technical point of view and we also facilitates all this project structure ation by being very proactive regarding the contractual negotiations and proposing of draft contracts. So in order to illustrate what we do at KO from one to two prisons, a project within fencing and which is under construction, it’s a ship sort of formal projects in France. Its solar thermal plants of 14,252 square meter, which is being built for a melting plant. So on the left of the picture you as the location, it’s soft of the city of Allah, so it’s as a GH I have around 1200 kilowatt hour per square meter per year. The clients is mounting plans and for those who know mounting plans, they receive the cereals and in order to turn it into more needs to Abbott’s wet and then dried, which uses a lot of energy. And a plan such as one you can see on the picture on the right uses around 80 to one hour of heat in the form of hot hair career. So that’s very interesting for solar thermal because it’s a lot of thermal needs and at temperatures that are not that high.
So regarding the location and the space that was available, so the the plant is quite close to the city of So it’s the city of Israel in France, but we’ve still been still able to find some available lands and to find free actors which close us to build what is at least today in Europe, the largest solar thermal plants for an industrial site. Of course we are bigger ones district eating and it works, and also big ones for industrial sites in the Middle East. But it’s still a project, which is quite interesting and that we hope to replicate in France, but also in other countries. Just to give you a little bit more details regarding the technical integration in the industrial process, so what’s key with this project is that there’s already a lot of decarbonised eat that is supplied to the process. So first in the form of waste eats and also inform our spammers. And what we very much took into account is that sort of funnel as to erase and to decrease the consumption of cast that should not take the place of course of waste, eat or biomass eats so all in all, We expect to commission the plans, meat of 2020 and 12 and annual production between eight and nine Zika one hour per year, which will allow you to reduce co2 emissions by around 2000 times per year. So, a little bit more regarding the contractual organization of this project, I think what what is key in order to present gaffer and press more generally, the dynamic of sort of formal is that at our firm, we are not a new PC contractor. We are not a new NM provider, what we aim at is partnering, partnering with companies around the globe that provides these kinds of solutions in order to as a bundle offer with the purchase agreements. So in details in this project we’ve been partnering with French companies which you can see on the screen. So, you eat that, if as also finished companies that was a Belgian company named set up to and we’ve been together. So, organizing and the service projects and also managing the subsidies, aspects in France, which as Barbro stress is a big incentive in France, which allows to kick start this industry and force all the permitting say.
Finally, I would like to stress why we think that third party financing can be a real accelerator for the solar industry, more generally from a commercial point of view. As I said, when you go and see an industrial sites most of the time, there will be no trusted by the solution, Betfair will be able to finance its third party financing. And those three things. One thing is, of course, that’s we are all in the industry content strategy sort of formal is very efficient and not that risky. But most of the time if you go to your marketing plans or any industrial sites that don’t know the specifics of sort of from and so it’s much easier to implement the projects if the technical risk and not on the industrial side but by a third party, and when you sell heats on a euro or dollar megawatt hour per megawatt hour basis, then you take means care firm and its partners take the risk that maybe the plants will produce less than expected. And I think that’s a big push. That’s a big arguments when you try to sell solar for more projects. Second point is of course, but when you see when you go and see industrial site, Most of eternity will tell you that fit under projects with payback that are higher than 1824 months. What we do in order for project to be realized is that we finance it with nothing less cost of capital. And we are able to have it contracts that are 1015 to 20 years. And in three of those two assets, the initial cost of construction of the plants and the lung and the long term and to have some heat price that are competitive with reference costs such as the gas cost. And last point, which is a little bit more technical, but if for big companies, international companies that are under the arrest 16 accounting rule, if you have any purchase agreements, such as one when we’ve implemented in a sudden project, well it’s a balance sheet for the company, meaning that since we take a lot of the risk, the industrial company will not have to add depth, its financial accounts, which is for CF owes of industrial site. pretty important. So finally, as I said, so the project I was mentioning is still under construction, but we’ve got some first photo montage of the project and you can see what we hope it will look like.
So thank you very much, everybody.
Well, thank you very much, Remy for your presentation. So you can see that we have seen we have some questions coming in, we’ll start answering them. Now. So
one of MH regarding
concessional financing, so we have
you know, do representatives here For three from the CSA industry, so do you believe that the industry so we’re seeing the providers of CSA and have solar heat systems are aware of the fact that so, concessional financing is available
Supercross fan if I was to answer
I was gonna say not all of you at same time.
I’m not specifically aware of it, but that’s also because we financed this project. So it would be interesting to to get to know them but but what I want to stress is that regarding this project, we really have to be end zone into the project and to adapt the financing to to the project. So I don’t know if these kinds of concessional financing are relevant when you when you referring to sort of from projects
And we have a question here as well for you my main which is regarding whether you finance projects in other places, not only in in France, but abroad. The specific question is about Brazil.
Yes, Yes, we do. As I said, initially, we were rather looking at projects in Europe that solar thermal was much more sunny areas in other continents in Brazil. We are definitely looking at projects in this country and other ones.
there is another question here, which is about the price for heat provision contracts. So, how do you come up with the price for which you you’ll be providing heat to Companies that purchase it from
so much was tracked price for proven contracts and not sure what
So, what I mean with this question, yeah what it means is that you provided a heat purchase contract which is similar to a kind of like a power purchase agreement. So, I suppose you have a price for unit of heat that you provide companies. So, how do you come up with base price and it’s just a question relevant not only today, but I think to me again as well because, you know, there HPA is the contract of structure, but, you know, how do how do you decide which price you how do you price that your units of heat, but please remain.
So, of course, the price will depend on the main figures which are being invested cost, the contract duration and the operational expenditures. And we have an internal internal figure, which is the Internal Revenue rates, which we try to have the lowest as possible in order to finance as many projects as possible. And the general idea is the more risk you take, the higher the IR has to be, the lower the risk, the lower the IR, and we always of course, try to be cost competitive compared to reference cost.
Okay. Thank you for me and Miguel one question to you. So,
how do you look at the use of SMEs? So, how do you decide which SMEs are can bear the rates of buying the projects? So, as I understand you sell the units out right so Dr. Enterprise owner The beauty of every Thursday from you.
Yes, sadly what what we are doing for the moment is doing turnkey projects. So, this could be like various trends. But I have to say that if you go to SMEs, they are not always Up. Up to ESCA model. This This actually this inside is shocked me a lot when I discovered and when I visited some, some SMEs, but in somewhat traditional sectors like food and beverage, they really want to own the equipment. Don’t ask me why? Because I really don’t understand. It was like very difficult to, to, to, to foresee to foresee these kind of things. But for the moment we are we’re doing fine doing 20 projects. And of course we we reevaluate the payback period with the energy that is Going to produce the systems, the price of the fossil fuel they’re using.
And the price of the integration, of course,
as a pricing, actually, I would have thought that
companies would want to own the systems that they might want to do the work, like focus on the core basis, which is producing whatever they produce and then purchase it from someone else. So why do you think, well, at least you know, from the companies you spoke with, why do they want to own this?
I think it was also surprising for me as as I said, it’s probably biased because we only visit SMEs. So it’s probably completely different from big companies in in the sense of big companies. But I think they prefer to, to to have the equipment because is good. They used to and they own the boilers, they own the process equipment, they own everything. So in a Spanish Not really, still, not really. I wouldn’t say like, very common to this kind of Eskimo Eskimo models, at least for heat. So, I’m always, I always also found some people interested in UNESCO models, of course, but I was suspecting like 90% of the people on the industry should prefer as models, but from the visits and the clients that we have, that are like 5050 in their preferred turnkey, like traditional banking models, banners, commodities.
Thank you, Miguel. So, well, we have a question here that Isa Isa, you know, getting right to the heart of the matter, which is What payback periods are usually considered in typical shake projects? So, you know, if you’re talking about a seven to eight for industrial processes, what are the typical payback periods that that can be expected from a project in a Sony location? Let’s say, you know, we’re a good solid resource, let’s say like southern Spain.
Well from from my experience, paybacks are often north of 1010 years to 1010 to 1515 years.
Okay. What What is your your experience, Miguel, what have you seen in terms of payback periods?
Well, it depends. For example, I can tell in the case of I would say that, I wouldn’t express the case of Spain. If you go to Canary Island, which are the Have cheap natural gas, they’re mostly industries using free oil. You can you can find very good potential business case having like a payback period between five and four, four to six years. Actually, if you go to a small small companies outside of the natural gas network in Spain with with a custom production Elise having the man during the Saturdays you also will find payback periods between six to seven years because they usually using propane or diesel. Okay sorry so that they pay a lot for the energy and that’s the reason they they have like a very good payback periods.
Okay, so you know what it seems that well seems obvious, you know, very I think it bears repeating. But one of the main factors that goes into determining the paper period is the price of food. So, you mentioned, you know, any anything between 15 days and four days for paper period was over other factors and then I have a question for you, Barbara. So, regarding, you know, what other people you have spoken with in your interviews, think about payback periods. But, yeah, so, but before we get there, so what are the other factors that need to be taking into account when you kind of see the payback period? What what affects a payback period?
Well, first, we have question the industry and the target countries have solar pay back and we have really received answers from two to four years, which is the typical payback periods which are accepted. So this is very challenging, and I agree with the others that the factor which is the most striking is the price of the future which is substituted. For example, in Brazil we have found that LPG is beaten by shape in any case, you know with the medium irradiation sides, so you will reach a nice I ours above 20%. So it’s really nice and and attractive. Whereas in gas and M and fuel oil you have to look into the temperature level that you have to provide. Usually it’s much easier to get a reasonable payback if you provide 50 to 70 degree with flat pay two lectures which are locally produced, as soon as you get above 100% your payback will go down and your hours will go down because the equipment is much more expensive. So we have identified in Brazil and I think this is probably for most nations where they are not yet locally produced concentrating collectors available that you know, 50 to 70% degree which is typical Also the marketing plant of France and so on, they are reasonable easy if if you have concessional financing 4% interest rates to a really, really nice I ours, but anything above 100% a degree, as I said is really difficult. You need locally produced collectors which are at least 40% cheaper than the world market prices, you know, with importing and shipping to reach paybacks. This is our experiences from the latest, you know, study from Brazil.
Right now, that’s that’s very interesting. I mean, you mentioned a number of things that we hadn’t take into account. So you mentioned interest rates for the financing. You mentioned the temperature level so for the people that are joining us today so why does your you know perhaps are not experts in the subjects of like don’t sit temperature level affect the Favorite area in these in these projects?
Well, this has two effects. I mean, one is that concentrating collectors can only use DNI and we have countries where the DNI that means the direct irradiation is stronger than the general directory ation, like you have a desert situation where you have always blue sky, but in most countries and we have found that in Brazil, because of the gravity sky, the DNA is much lower than the general irradiation. So, as soon as you go above 100 degree and unique concentrating collectors, you have less irradiation, that helps you to gain yield, but the equipment is more expensive. So that is this double effect, which makes you IRS difficult. So you need to either reduce you to subsidize or reduce your really local costs.
Interesting Insights here. So we have a question by Eloqua. The most to remain with you Essentially eliminate saying that you are enabling HBA for developers that cannot operate and you’re taking most of it breaks up front. So you know, one of the other any remaining rates to the end user has this year.
Yes, I think it’s a good synthesis. So thank you, Elena.
Regarding the main things we’re going to ask from the his clients as we try to be as less as possible. The first one is bad for us, sort of formal heats before their gas boiler or shoe boiler. So of course, if there’s waste if we can use it first, but they have to use any solar heat before their gas boiler, and then the second commitments we may and it depends on which project we were talking about. We may also ask that they keep a certain consumption level, if they go under a certain consumption level, that’s the price may go a little bit up. But in most cases, we take the risk of the site closure, meaning that if we have a 20 year contracts, as the industrial site closes down after 10 years, and it’s a financial loss for for us.
Okay, thank you. And then
jumping to a more general question, so we have a question here that says, you know, what do you think would be a game changer to see CSH become as deployed as PV panels. So, so, you know, you know, there are very hundreds of gigabytes of PV being deployed and that helps massively with economies of scale degree. down costs. So what would need to happen to have CSH deployed on a been widely deployed?
So, folks, I think,
I think it’s so that the solution is very interesting, a modular solution which you can replicate. I think it’s one of the key solution in the market to be able to standardize and replicates. But of course, when I think it will also have to, you will also need to trust and more regular solutions on your capacity plans, because there’s a market for small plans, but there’s also a lot of projects that are to be done with bigger plans.
I want to be a bit more provocative here actually, because I think to speed up ship, we need quotes. I don’t believe in in the volunteer of industry, you know, in these very difficult markets. Where there’s a lot of, you know, shifting to other countries and they look very much for their costs and so on. So we have in India, this is an interesting approach that they are actually have already in on below the table, you know, a quote that will force the industry to say you have to do 10% renewable energy in your heat demand. And they have not put it up yet, because they have still doubts about the ship technology was available and whether it’s, you know, efficient enough, but I think that we need sort of regulations to make industry aware, and China is showing the game sort of, because they it makes all hard sanctions against companies that keep on using or cold boilers to keep up their clean air. You know, maybe this is a bit hard, but I need some kind of regulatory framework would be really helpful.
Right, well, that’s an interesting thought. Actually, I don’t know any technology in energy. Really, that hasn’t been something that we’ve saved a boost from regulation at one point or not. And he’s a very, not very well known fact that the industry that receives the most obsolete Still, he said fossil fuels industry so. So, Miguel, do you? Do you want to add anything to today’s question? So what would what would need to happen for concentrated solar heat systems to be widely deployed?
I think one important thing for the technology and I’m going to speak from the technology point of view is standardization. And I don’t mean normalization, I mean, we have to do the same thing we have because we need something a standard to be able to replicate actually. Otherwise every project is different. Clients cannot refer to other projects because they are completely different. We have to design every integration from every customer. That’s very, very hard. So we have to do the same that the traditional boilers does. So you need a boiler and you have one boiler of the shelf ready to be used in. If it is possible, we have to move to that kind of ready to be used product. I think that would completely change the situation. I think BB actually photovoltaics is something like that. And we have to be more like EV in that sense.
Interesting. So and then referring to something that was in gargoyles presentation. So you mentioned barbel, that one of your goals is to speak with companies that have sustainability targets by themselves. So I don’t know Have any of you who are you know, we’ve asked today let either me or Miguel universal actually spoken at all these conference sustainability targets. We thinking about hate, or whatnot, what have you found?
Well, actually, you know, that I have even started only started the very first approach which makes making these network organizers answer any kind of request, because I thought the first idea would be, you know, to get in contact with three 100 and ask them, How are you organized? Do you have office? Are you interested in a webinar on ship, whatever, you know, I have, I have had such a hard time to even making these networks, answer to any kind of email, phone or whatever. So I cannot really say what the companies behind these networks think about but I will not give up. I’m not that easy to give up. But actually, that’s why I feel it’s challenging and I’m really meeting like, I just wanted to blow this well bowl into the open arena and see whether others are more successful. These companies who can download them by extra, you know, Like you can download 600 companies with their name and their site, and they are all committed to do 100% renewable electricity by so I wonder if this is a client group I have not found them up yet actually I tried to get to the network organizers for us because I thought we can use them as multipliers for our message. And I hope that I will reach them also but let’s see. I haven’t really got that far yet with contacting them, but any anybody who has success in reaching out to them get in contact with me please?
Not me Not yet.
So um, well, I mean, I don’t know where this hour has gone but it turns out at six o’clock here in in Spain, so I’m afraid but the we have run out of time. And I’d like to thank all of you who have been here with us watching the webinar. I’m to all of the speakers, of course. Thank you, barber mechanic for me for being here. Also, I’d like to remind everyone that we will definitely send you the webinar recording and the presentations. So don’t worry, it will be up within a couple of days or so. By Monday at the latest so right so would you like to say any any anything else to the audience before we go each way?
No, no Namaste. Thank you. Thank you very much to to everybody for frightening.
Yeah, thanks from my side as well. was a pleasure. Very interesting.
Thank you also for my side, sorry because it’s very dark but the sun just is going down in Spain to life.
I tried to increase the brightness of the screen but it’s not working
well I just like to point out that these women are was made possible by the World Bank program main sex the key. And you can see resources on concentrated solar heat and concentrated solar powered manner, CSP, keep calm and we’ll send you these, these webinar recording and the person patient. Thank you very much all of you and, and see you next time. Bye bye.